Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

A Note on Critiquing

Collapse
This is a sticky topic.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #16
    Re: A Note on Critiquing

    Originally posted by Lil Miss Mouse link=topic=2113.msg58103#msg58103 date=1396504311
    No…all kinds of no. I'm sorry but intended content is just as important as correct syntax/grammar/spelling, otherwise with that kind of logic then I, as a lover of BDSM, should just keel over and appreciate books like 50 Shades of Grey or Gorean novels for what they are despite the fact that there's virtually no character development, 'consent' is pretty much a myth, an egregious amount of horrid sexism encouraging women to explore their deviant sexual behavior so long as they know their place is still under a man.

    Sorry but if I critique a story, it's going to be for all that it is and not just grammar and spelling. If I personally find the content of it reprehensible even despite any aforementioned warnings about its disturbing content, I'm still going to call it out.

    I'm sorry but no, this is a story forum where, as it's been indicated by the administration time and time again, critique will always be accepted. I hate to be a dick about this but a writer doesn't get to simply get away from bad storytelling simply because they met and executed the intentions of their story by their own standards. That's not how critique works.
    If someone posted an ABDL version of 50 shades here, I would give it the absolute beating it should have taken by any other intelligent critic…

    Comment


      #17
      Re: A Note on Critiquing

      Originally posted by Lil Miss Mouse link=topic=2113.msg58103#msg58103 date=1396504311
      No…all kinds of no. I'm sorry but intended content is just as important as correct syntax/grammar/spelling, otherwise with that kind of logic then I, as a lover of BDSM, should just keel over and appreciate books like 50 Shades of Grey or Gorean novels for what they are despite the fact that there's virtually no character development, 'consent' is pretty much a myth, and an egregious amount of horrid sexism encouraging women to explore their deviant sexual behavior so long as they know their place is still under a man.

      Sorry but if I critique a story, it's going to be for all that it is and not just grammar and spelling. If I personally find the content of it reprehensible even despite any aforementioned warnings about its disturbing content, I'm still going to call it out.

      This is a story forum where, as it's been indicated by the administration time and time again, critique will always be accepted. I hate to be a dick about this but a writer doesn't get to simply get away from bad storytelling simply because they met and executed the intentions of their story by their own standards. That's not how critique works.
      I am not certain, but I feel this was a response to my post… Correct me if I am wrong.

      Again, I think you missed the entire point of my post. You essentially re-stated my point while saying you were disagreeing with it. My point was a story can be good or bad regardless of the type. While you said "by your logic I should just keel over…" my point was the opposite, by my logic you wouldn't accept 50 Shades even if you were into BDSM. 50 Shades was bad not because it had BDSM elements, but because the writing, plot, and characters were poor. If the rest of it was good (I know its not, but hypothetically), it wouldn't matter if I liked BDSM or not, it would still be a good book and judging it simply because I don't like the idea of bondage would be a mistake and useless to the author. If that is the case, then the genre doesn't matter. My point is not to base your critique on the type of story, but on the story and writing itself.

      Also, I have actually seen it more often go the other way, where people claim that there isn't enough diaper content in the "everyday" sorts of stories, usually saying it takes too long to get to anything interesting. Also, I have seen people insisting on the inclusion of spankings in the "cute" types, even when it wouldn't make sense and would go against the point of the story. These would be cases where people are judging the story on the genre, not the quality, which is what I am trying to avoid. Basically, different people read abdl stories for different reasons, and there are good and bad examples for each of those readings whether everyone likes one or not.

      Again, it seems like you agreed with me while arguing against me.
      I was so much older then, I'm younger then that now.

      Comment


        #18
        Re: A Note on Critiquing

        Originally posted by Lil Miss Mouse link=topic=2113.msg58103#msg58103 date=1396504311
        I, as a lover of BDSM, should just keel over and appreciate books like 50 Shades of Grey or Gorean novels for what they are despite the fact that there's virtually no character development, 'consent' is pretty much a myth, and an egregious amount of horrid sexism encouraging women to explore their deviant sexual behavior so long as they know their place is still under a man.
        Funny you mentioned the Gorean novels and their having no character development. I thought Tarl Cabot had intense character development. I just hate what he developed into. He is trained into a proud warrior and decent guy in a BSDM type world and fights for the book equivalent of aliens/gods, then for some reason loses his honor and awakens into a darker BSDM figure dominant in the setting. I hated losing the character I'd invested in to the darker one. Occasionally in each of the following books, he recalls his honor and stops a plot from the evil aliens. Think Beowulf.

        The whole series had great promise that still exists and I really want to read to the end of it. The problem, is what you addressed above: the insistence in turning an adventure story into a BDSM story at the expense of forward motion through the plot. Examples involve vast paragraphs of sexist drivel that add nothing to the plot and only further the whims of people reading for pornographic purposes.

        The series took a left turn somewhere after book five or six, when the book changed characters. Female characters were as well developed as the male characters without the sexism of sixties and seventies books. Instead of the usual sexism you have of female characters being cardboard cutouts who don't add to the plot, you have the sexism of "all women yearn to be dominated by men." Even that might have been okay if it wasn't so overused in all of the latter books with long diatribes and essays when all I want is action. Now that he is self-published the diatribes go on and on and never let up.

        John Norman has probably never heard the phase, "Show, don't tell." Essays are not showing. It's a pain to read because I am interested in the plot, not the BDSM scenes. Fortunately I can read a Gor novel pretty quickly because I can just skip through the boring parts.

        I am among a minority of readers of the Gorean books, not being into BDSM, but reading to find out all the fascinating things that we never get to because he has to write essays about his theories of male dominance.

        So to sum up my thoughts, I disagree that character development is the problem with the Gorean books. Instead it's the author's insufferable views and insistence on expounding on them at the expense of story.

        As readers of diapers stories, we want to make sure we aren't doing the same thing and making diapers stories insufferable. In a hypothetical diapered super-heroine story, we want to devote more stories to her fighting crime and not devote ever page and all our description to the super-heroine peeing and/or messing her diapers. As in the Gorean books where the BDSM is expected, we want to give our reader the right amount of diaper without losing site of the fact that our heroine has other aspects of her than the fact the she can turn a white diaper yellow or brown. Balance is an important ingredient. It's an ingredient that the writer of the Gorean novels never had and the novels are poorer as a result. Many diaper story writers don't have balance and that is almost as egregious.

        Comment


          #19
          Re: A Note on Critiquing

          Originally posted by Write And Left link=topic=2113.msg58108#msg58108 date=1396538138
          As in the Gorean books where the BDSM is expected, we want to give our reader the right amount of diaper without losing site of the fact that our heroine has other aspects of her than the fact the she can turn a white diaper yellow or brown.
          This is something I wrestle with constantly with The Panda's Ashes, especially since the fact that Naomi alternately struggles with her bladder control and allows herself to be lazy with it is a significant component of her internal conflict between desiring and loathing her physically necessary infantile treatment. In short, it's part of a key plot point, but I have to tread carefully to avoid excessive focus on it.

          Comment


            #20
            Re: A Note on Critiquing

            Hmm, interesting. I think there's a misinterpretation of what ABAlex was saying.

            Correct me if I'm wrong here, but essentially, you don't like critiques that boil down to "I don't like it because I don't like stories about messing" rather than that being something to give perspective to the rest of the review.

            You think that they should be posting something more like this:

            "I don't like stories with messing and couldn't really enjoy it but I did notice some issues that you might want to fix. For example in the third paragraph you missed a comma after Sarah's name. I also noticed you changed between first person and third person narration in several places where it does not make sense to do so."

            Is that what you were trying to say, ABAlex?

            EDIT: Btw, the second one? Based on an actual review of a sci-fi porn story I wrote a few years ago. Just replace messing with S&M

            Comment


              #21
              Re: A Note on Critiquing

              Originally posted by Renko Yanagi link=topic=2113.msg58112#msg58112 date=1396565983
              Hmm, interesting. I think there's a misinterpretation of what ABAlex was saying.

              Correct me if I'm wrong here, but essentially, you don't like critiques that boil down to "I don't like it because I don't like stories about messing" rather than that being something to give perspective to the rest of the review.

              You think that they should be posting something more like this:

              "I don't like stories with messing and couldn't really enjoy it but I did notice some issues that you might want to fix. For example in the third paragraph you missed a comma after Sarah's name. I also noticed you changed between first person and third person narration in several places where it does not make sense to do so."

              Is that what you were trying to say, ABAlex?

              EDIT: Btw, the second one? Based on an actual review of a sci-fi porn story I wrote a few years ago. Just replace messing with S&M
              Basically, though it could be applied to any aspect. I've actually had the opposite happen, where a commenter was upset that I didn't concentrate on "messy" stuff. Ofcourse that was on DA, which works a bit differently then this place.
              Thanks
              I was so much older then, I'm younger then that now.

              Comment


                #22
                Re: A Note on Critiquing

                Critiques aren't just pointing out flaws either. You can give a poor critique and be positive about it too.

                For example,

                "Great Story, More Please!"

                As a writer, this doesn't tell me where to go anymore than "This sucks get on with the diaper stuff".

                Part of competence with any skill is being able to tell quality from lack thereof. But it's harder to become competent if people don't tell you what quality looks like. And no, I don't believe there is such a thing as "universal standards". I believe as a society we have a cultural currency on what to expect and what passes for quality writing. And these standards have ebbed and flowed and evolved for better or worse with the passage of generations.

                In fact, maybe there's a correlation and possibly causality to poor writers being bad sports with thin skin. Their writing is poor AND they are socially awkward because they've never been particularly included in society. They don't know the standards because they've never learned them or perhaps had the temperament to learn the do's and don'ts of societal interaction that good writing, giving, and receiving critiques entails.

                I'm not saying to go easy on poor writers, I'm saying try to bring these people into the community. This is something that as far as I've seen, the critics on this board strive to do…now if only we could get the other end of the equation to go along with it and become part of the writing community by adapting themselves.

                Then again. This can be done poorly to.

                Take this little gem I received from my April Fools Day prank of purposefully bad writing:

                "I can't imagine why you wouldn't want honest criticism about a product you want to sell. In any case, the writing makes it a bland read. I do like the premise however, so potential is definitely there."

                In my crazy brain that translated to "You can't write for shit, but you've got a neat idea." No where in that guy's post (who I'm pretty sure did not get the joke) tell me how to improve that. He said it sucks, and he tried to soften the blow by saying I had a good idea. That's empty praise second only to "Good story, more please!"

                Am I the only one feeling this?

                Comment


                  #23
                  Re: A Note on Critiquing

                  No I agree with this completely. A lot of people don't make a distinction between an opinion and a critique. Your opinion may be that it is very good or terrible, but that doesn't really help anything. Whether giving a positive or negative critique, there should always be reasoning behind it with examples. Saying "It is good, this is what I liked, this is what needs improvement" or "It was bad, this is why, and here is how to improve" certainly helps. Nothing is worse then random points with no actual feedback being presented as critiques.

                  As for the rest about thin skin… that is definitely a problem which probably holds a lot of potentially great writers back. On the other hand, some great artists and authors have been notoriously stuck up, so I don't know. The fact is, no one on this site (or at all is a perfect writer, and chances are there is no one who is really "great" either. People with thin skin need to acknowledge this and accept the criticism before they can improve, but sometimes it is just too difficult.
                  I was so much older then, I'm younger then that now.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Re: A Note on Critiquing

                    Originally posted by ABAlex link=topic=2113.msg58121#msg58121 date=1396645028
                    As for the rest about thin skin… that is definitely a problem which probably holds a lot of potentially great writers back. On the other hand, some great artists and authors have been notoriously stuck up, so I don't know. The fact is, no one on this site (or at all is a perfect writer, and chances are there is no one who is really "great" either. People with thin skin need to acknowledge this and accept the criticism before they can improve, but sometimes it is just too difficult.
                    I really believe that most of the "thin-skinned" amateur writers out there are people who are posting out of a need for acknowledgement/affirmation. They are generally narcissistic (as evidenced by their responses/begging for comments/holding the story hostage/ragequitting at negative feedback), and they have serious self-image problems. They don't want to know that they suck at writing, they want to hear how great they are. It's attention-seeking behavior, that's all.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Re: A Note on Critiquing

                      Originally posted by WBDaddy link=topic=2113.msg58122#msg58122 date=1396645338
                      I really believe that most of the "thin-skinned" amateur writers out there are people who are posting out of a need for acknowledgement/affirmation. They are generally narcissistic (as evidenced by their responses/begging for comments/holding the story hostage/ragequitting at negative feedback), and they have serious self-image problems. They don't want to know that they suck at writing, they want to hear how great they are. It's attention-seeking behavior, that's all.
                      This may be true in some cases, but be careful not to generalize. The fact is some people take longer to learn to write then others. I could see someone who makes an honest effort to improve his writing get upset after constant failures and eventually dislike the critiques.
                      It also depends largely on the tone of the critiques. There are fair critiques, then there are insults and personal attacks, and not everyone knows the difference. That mistake can be made on the part of the person receiving or giving the critique. Nothing is worse then someone who will simply blast a story or even insult the author without giving any reasoning, then just say "its my opinion, f--- off" when asked why he thought that. If you give a negative comment, you need to give reasons for it, otherwise it isn't really a critique.
                      Also, I have seen critiques given by people who did not seem to read the story in question. They will attack portions that weren't in the work itself or miss key plot points. In this case, frustration is certainly understandable.

                      Anyway, my point is, while in many cases anger at critiques is the fault of the author, there can be more going on then just that.
                      I was so much older then, I'm younger then that now.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Re: A Note on Critiquing

                        Which would be why I said "most", not "all"…

                        PS: Regarding the criticism of style or form, that's basically the reason why I don't generally comment on your stories, Alex. I don't care for your writing style, even though it's basically sound technically. I avoid commenting on material that doesn't interest me, because I have a hard time separating my biases from my critique.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Re: A Note on Critiquing

                          Originally posted by WBDaddy link=topic=2113.msg58126#msg58126 date=1396647207
                          Which would be why I said "most", not "all"…

                          PS: Regarding the criticism of style or form, that's basically the reason why I don't generally comment on your stories, Alex. I don't care for your writing style, even though it's basically sound technically. I avoid commenting on material that doesn't interest me, because I have a hard time separating my biases from my critique.
                          Well I thank you for that. However, as I mentioned, the "Alice" stories are the only ones that are so… extreme. I try to write in each of the "sub genres" I mentioned, with "The Date" being the more "everyday" kind and "Cutie Baby" being the more "cute" kind.

                          As for Alice, I actually agree with you that it isn't that good, I basically write them due to popular demand on other sites. I replied to you with that point and explained this. It was a collection of single images and ideas I rejected from other stories, not a story itself. So please don't base your opinion entirely on that.

                          BTW, I am guessing by "writing style" that is what you were referring to. If it is something else, please tell me.
                          I was so much older then, I'm younger then that now.

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Re: A Note on Critiquing

                            Nope, I just can't get into the groove of your narration. It's just a me thing, I wouldn't worry about it.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Re: A Note on Critiquing

                              Critique should not be read as dislike of a story—in fact, usually the opposite. If someone has taken the time to read a story and comment on it, it means it's got enough merit or interest to bother with it. For example, there are plenty of stories that simply don't appeal, where I start reading and realize it's one of those stories, or where after I read a while I'm not hooked and getting bored, so I stop reading and find another. The ones I skip never get my input.

                              So as an author, don't let feedback discourage you. Think of comments as, "I like your story, but here's the weak areas you need to work on."

                              And for those of us giving critique, we should remember to include things that appeal to us or that authors are getting right, to balance our critique and ensure the good isn't lost while fixing the bad.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Re: A Note on Critiquing

                                Agreed


                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X